In the coming month boof.com will have a new user-driven online guide that will be an expansion of the Holbek-Stanley guide currently in print. Given the below threads on boof.com and Boatertalk, I'd like to get a broader idea of what people like *past* the Upper Cherry Creek discussions, i.e. Class II runs and Class V runs.

Comments are also encouraged, e.g. "photos/video of Cherry Creek is great but I would hesitate to post anything on the Middle Kings" or "I have no problems posting as much info as possible on all the Class II runs in the state but would hate to see the pure wilderness runs have line ups like the North Feather releases." Obviously, if you sign your name, you'll have much more weight on the development of the guide. I'm currently inclined to follow the Holbek-Stanley model and treat it as a 4th ed. (so if the run would be in that guide it will be on boof.com). However, I'm not inclined to post flow windows or detailed run descriptions, there's some credo in the statement "If you need beta, you don't belong there!"

I like the Holbek-Stanley book quite a bit. However, I think there could be a bit more said about the difficulties of scouting & portaging a run may have i.e., if the run has rapids which would be exceedingly difficult to portage, say so. They wouldn't need to be located but telling the reader what makes them difficult would be nice.

Secondly, I think it would be good to list which runs one may want to paddle before hand in preparation for, or as you call it, an "incremental build up". Which BTW, I'm still very interested in getting your opinion on this Brett: http://www.boof.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=663

As for the wilderness runs having line-ups, that would truely be a shame. However, where are all these folks from that are willing to paddle a class 5 creek with a loaded boat and worse yet, hike to get there? Other than a select few tiny groups, they sure aren't from my neck of the woods. On the other hand, maybe I'm totally out of touch with what the newer generation of "sick" rodeo paddlers are willing to do for the camera.

Thanks. Look forward seeing what you come out with.

I'm of the opinion that you should only "Disseminate in part". After all, this sport is about adventure and going places few go. If you give all the info that would be needed where would the adventure lie? Yes for some people just getting down the run is quite an adventure and I don't mean anything negative by that. We all have to start somewhere. As for the format I would like to see, well Holbek and Stanley pretty much nailed it. I think it would be more of an adventure if they just published the put-in and take-out info along with the difficulty. If you want mile-by-mile gradient, season, etc. Do some homework! Get out a map. That's just my 2 cents.
-J.D.

My thought is that although you should "disseminate in part", it is also helpful to disseminate a little more on "entry level" runs at a particular class, and to disseminate a little less on "adult" runs. In other words, someone who is setting off for their first self support class 4 run should have an option of doing something they can get just a little more beta on, but after that, they should be expected to be more and more self sufficient in terms of judgement/skills as the runs become more and more "adult"..

I take my cue from climbing: on moderate rock routes, a fully laid out topo can help people to keep from getting in over their heads, and can keep SAR costs to a minimum. But on a multi-week Alaskan epic like the Cassin Ridge, you'd better be prepared, or else be prepared to die.

So, all in all, I propose you take a route that generally follows Holbeck/Stanley, but makes a few allowances on a few runs. The more adult runs should be less well documented, as people should build their skills over time instead of expecting instant TEE-VEE gratification.
Or, as Lars says: "If you need information on how to do the shuttle for this one, you shouldn't be running it".

I say this, tell the people what is out there, show photos, show video, give quotes from people who have made the runs, give general shuttle logistics (not all logistics for extra-serious runs though-see below). I think good testimonials may even scare some people away from certain runs.

Here's the flip side of the coin. Serious class V runs deserve warnings, testimonials, and deterrents.

For something like Fantasy Falls, Royal Gorge, UCC, Grand Canyon of the T, etc. that has a short window of flow, I would not post "GC of T IS FLOWING!!!" Just like in Lars' guide book, post the general season ("spring") when these flow. I think that figuring out the flow window is one of many pre-requisites to being able to make these mentioned runs. If you can't figure out for yourself when these runs are going to be good, you shouldn't be there.

That said about flows, what about access? Some runs are harder to find than others. Take Fantasy Falls for instance-lotsa different dirt roads around the takeout. To quote the book, "if you can't find the put in, you won't make it down stream." I think that again, the serious nature of these multi-day trips make it necessary that not ALL the info is given. Finding the access on these big trips is another pre-requisite to being capable to run these rivers.

So obviously I don't think that ALL info needs to be disclosed, but I do think that info on legit runs should be disclosed. After all, if it hadn't gotten posted on Boof, we'd never have run Canyon creek in the fall. But after hearing about it, a friend of mine and I went and foot scouted it to make sure we weren't getting in over our heads. That's the kind of stuff that is essential for survival in Class V.

In regards to UCC, it sucks that it's such a photogenic place. There isn't any boater alive that hasn’t wished they could go there after seeing pictures of the clean drops. I remember when I first saw pictures of Dry Meadow Creek back when I lived in Colorado and I was ready to make a trip out to CA just for that run. I think that's what has happened with UCC, but the fact is UCC is TWELVE times harder/more dangerous/serious than Dry Meadow.

Why has UCC gotten a different buzz than other high sierra classics? I think it's scare factor (or lack of). If you read about Devil's Postpile or Middle Kings in the book, you get scared. Nothing has been able to scare people from UCC yet, just photos that make people want to go. If there is a good guide for it, it may scare away the buzz.

To be entirely honest, I doubt if I'll make UCC this season. Why? I don't have my new back-pack system yet. That's a big deal to me. I don't want to get it a few days before an UCC trip and have to figure it out as I go. A trip like that needs to be one where you have tested your gear again and again and have a good system and I'm not willing to sacrifice time/energy of my TEAM on a run like UCC cause I'm still figuring out my gear. I think that warning such as that one need to be made to anyone thinking about such runs.

Sorry about the long ass "vote." This has just been a topic that has bugged me since the first posting about Upper Cherry hit boof. It's funny that this one run has such a buzz about it. Let's take a bunch of photos in UCC then post them as a different run and see if we can re-create this buzz again next season... (possible thesis topic).

I'd say that the best approach is to give enough info to whet the appatites of those that should be there, but make them do their homework, and to scare away those that shouldn't be there. A good example is the description on AW for Virginia's Bottom Creek http://www.americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/1887.

I'd say that the most important thing is to give good descriptions of the difficulties/hazards and/or types of hazards. If people don't have this information, it won't keep people off a run, but if they do, they may think twice about it. I've found that in general, the vast majority of the people running Class V/V+ have good judgement as to their skills and abilities, and can tell pretty easily where the do and don't belong. Those that don't usually get scared pretty fast and go back to boating easier stuff.

Part of the UCC "problem" may be that there aren't any good descriptions of the run (at least none that I've been able to find), but there's lots of pictures and video floating around. People don't really know what the "deal" is beyond what they've seen in LVM, and want to go check it out for themselves.

I'm a big fan of making people do thier homework, figuring out how to get to the put-ins and take-outs, figuring out IF a creek is running, etc., but I have to say that arguement that "figuring out the flow window is one of many pre-requisites to being able to make these mentioned runs" doesn't hold much weight with me. This doesn't really have much of anything to do with boating skill or experience, but has a lot more to do with local knowledge. As someone from the east coast, I have NO IDEA how to tell when/if "Creek Q" is going to be running. You don't have to tell me that "Creek Q" will be running from 9:32 am on June 8th to 7:28 pm on june 26, but at least tell me what to look for to get an idea of when "Creek Q" will be running, how to tell if it's high or low, etc. You don't have to be super specific, but give enough to give enough info to get a general idea. Otherwise, in the process of gathering info on "Creek Q," I'll get on the forum at boof.com and ask "hey, what's the flow window for "Creek Q"?" which launches a hugh debate about whether to to disseminate, enshroud, subvert, or negate info about creeks and rivers, and then you get long, rambling responses like these.

Jeremy

Let me first start off by saying that I hear where many of you are coming from. Second, I am not claiming to be an expert. I'm am just speaking from what experience I have with this particular subject. I apoligize to any in advance if you feel I have devalged to much information.
For starters there are no sure fire ways of determining when Upper cherry is flowing. CDEC does not publish inflows to many of the resevoirs in the state(that I am aware of). Therefore short of you or one of your buddies paddling across Cherry Lake it is anyones guess as to the flow. Now there are correlations to other runs, but given the diverse nature of the snowpack throughout the Sierra's these are not always helpful. So as far as UCC goes you could base your best guess off of the following. Now keep in mind as I said before the Sierra's are very diverse in everything from snowpack, to headwaters elevations, to size of the drainage basin. That said, check out the change in lake storage for Cherry Valley Dam, the inflow to Hetch Hetchy, storage for Lake Eleanor, etc. etc., The CDEC site offers historical data for the past few years so you should be able to get some idea. Another thing to consider is that most of the people hitting many of the High Sierra runs have the time to do it. They are not on a 2 week paddling safari, but rather they are here until the water is gone. They can afford to sit around and wait until the flow is spot on. Oh and for research purposes, the flow window last year was from about June 30th thru July 8th, give or take a few days.
It's not so much that people are keeping beta from you but rather they don't really know for certain themselves! Good luck and let me know if you figure out some "easy" way of gauging the flow. Otherwise, I'll be paddling across the lake Friday afternoon. Cheers
J.D.

I say - if you're writing the run description, you choose how to write it! Whether it be mile by mile with rapid descriptions, just location, or "DUDE - WE RAN THIS THING, JEEEZ"

Your run, your description, your deal. And if someone blames you cuz someone got hurt following your directions.. BAH! Everyone running should accept responsibility for their own injuries. If you choose to go, you choose to go! If you don't know you can get injured kayaking - oh come on, who doesn't know? It's a risk. Yeah, it's easier to blame someone else for your own problems, and we live in a law-suit blame-game driven country... but, shoot, aren't we whitewater kayakers a bit removed from that?

The BLAME GAME.

Brett

The online guide sounds great. Lets not sweat the small stuff, you know what I mean? Portage this, put in here, take out there, pics, no pics, great detailed expalnation, no detail... whatever. This stuff is all trivial, what we really need is just some naked or least half naked pics of the kayaker girls with the juciy booties! Online guides are cool and judging from your website it will be one of the coolest. We need hot chicks in kayaking just like surfing and wakeboarding!

ps
are you ever going to fix that freaking park?

JC

Sorry, I just wanted to add that my previous post was in response to the survey question as asked - which was "available online" (not limited to boof.com).

As per what should be allowed on boof.com, I feel that's totally up to Brett Valle's discretion.

Happy Boating,
Dan